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Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 5th, 2017, 6:52 pm
by scrutney
i've always said "i don't own one, i don't want one, and i won't won't have one in the house."

but, but, but...i see an assault on the 2nd amendment coming and i am now considering getting one.
promise...i won't fire a shot until i've been fully trained by someone reputable. (someone named cletus or digger)

my son is 19 years old, can be trusted not to touch something he's told not to touch, and would probably love to learn the basics of responsible gun ownership.

one of my favorite fictional characters (gabriel allon -israeli assassin and free lance art restorer- from the daniel silva books) carries a 22 pistol, modified to carry 11 rounds.
i don't want a modified pistol...10 shots should more than serve my needs for home protection.
several people have told me i need more stopping power...but i have my doubts.

however...i want something a little more powerful than a gun designed for dainty murder in milady's boudoir.

thoughts?
comments?


(puc...i'll think long and hard before i purchase one...but, these are strange times and they're getting weirder by the day...and i may just want one because there MAY come a day in my lifetime, when i won't be able to get one...and i don't want to be the only one in my neighborhood defending my hovel castle by throwing rocks.)

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 5:59 pm
by RichWhitey
I think they know they can't control all the firearms that are already out there. Millions of the little goobers everywhere. After all, it don't matter about the gun if the government buys up all the ammunition! THAT'S what you need to study up on. Get you a reloader for handgun ammo and have plenty of supplies so you can still go bang after the uprising. :idea:

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 7:52 pm
by PucPuggy
Scrutney, Would you be shocked to know that I, too, would not be opposed to having a gun? The elderly are victims. I think of home invasions and the thought terrifies me. But could I use it on a human being? That's the leap I have to make. It might not be that much of a leap after training, however.

As I have said before, responsible gun-ownership (NOT military weapons and ammo) is fine by me. My favorite nephew has a variety of guns and competes in various events. I wish I could remember. Something like 3-6-9. Three different gun categories, all timed to the millisecond, and scores combined. He places first in one kind of gun every time, but has yet to obtain first in all three at once. He is always preparing for that one. He is a great guy, too.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 8:46 pm
by scrutney
puc:
Scrutney, Would you be shocked to know that I, too, would not be opposed to having a gun?
nope...
the world is a very different place then the one in which we grew up.

and i have my doubts whether i could shoot someone...you're probably right that proper training would clarify our thinking.
i'm tabling the issue at present.
we'll just say i'm thinking about it.
i'm also thinking about buying a really nice analog macintosh stereo rig...with those big ass speakers that most wives (sexist stereotype -no pun intended- i know)hate
i'm thinking about a lot of things.
chief among them:

  • tyranny via tweet.
  • using the first amendment to attack the fourth estate.
  • the enigmatic "calm before the storm"
  • a do nothing congress that i helped elect...
  • and a sneaking hunch that gorsuch, might just out-scalia scalia.

these (and the stereo thing) are the things which weigh heavy on my mind.
owning a gun?
not so much.

hindsight may be 20/20...but foresight is a foot in the door.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 8:52 pm
by Coebul
I own guns, several of them. Hi cap clips military assault style the 9 yards. I will never willingly give them up. What other feel about abortions I feel pretty much the same way about my second amendment rights.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 9:05 pm
by Coebul
scrutney wrote:
October 6th, 2017, 8:46 pm
and i have my doubts whether i could shoot someone...you're probably right that proper training would clarify our thinking.
Brother! You would be surprised what self preservation will have you doing. If and when you are faced with that moment I would hope you would have the good sense to grab something and beat the snot out of that other person.. Me Bang! I have absolutely no doubt if faced with a life threatening situation I will do my best to make sure it is the other guy that meets his maker and not me or my family. It pisses me off that other people console there conscience(s) by taking my rights away..

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 6th, 2017, 10:39 pm
by scrutney
coe...i have my doubts as to whether i could shoot a man...
having said that, beating the shit out of him has a certain allure...it takes time to administer a sound thrashing...and gives one a chance to ponder the concept of existentialism...his, not yours.

scrut (through the
crimson haze) :
"do i really want to kill this schmuck?. he's only got 7...belay that...5 teeth
careful of the midsection...there's salable parts being squandered.
i dunno, maybe i can cane some sense into him.
and it's one deft knee to his little friend and he's off to ICU."
but i don't think i could shoot a guy.
i don't like guns.
too violent.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 7th, 2017, 8:01 am
by PucPuggy
Scrutney, I'm at the same point you are re guns. It's a subculture. Serious stuff. Not to be done cavalierly. Ain't that the truth about this not being the same place we grew up! Changes were so rapid.

Your list is my list! Although I think the "calm before the storm" is baloney. It's off off off off off Broadway schlock theater by the master entertainer. Kelly and others will thwart the notion of an offensive nuclear attack on North Korea. And I wouldn't discount the CIA. And I didn't elect any Republicans into office.

I'll have to look up that analog stereo with the big honking speakers!

Gorsuch. I fear the worst, but I do look forward to reading whatever he writes as a justice of the Supreme Court.

Cheers!

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
by PucPuggy
Coebul wrote:
October 6th, 2017, 8:52 pm
I own guns, several of them. Hi cap clips military assault style the 9 yards. I will never willingly give them up. What other feel about abortions I feel pretty much the same way about my second amendment rights.
Coebul, You are not the gun-owning American I am against. I am no more against you than I am against my nephew. I don't, however, condone military weapons and ammo in private hands.

As for our beliefs re abortion and the second amendment: Comparing the two is celery and eggplants. You wish to control and limit our complete healthcare. It's a gender war. On the other hand, regarding gun control, I and many like me simply do not want weapons created for war available to private citizens. Both men and women agree on this; it is not a gender issue. In addition, the amendment you cherish does not give you and all the others unlimited rights. Even Scalia said that.

I respect your position although I don't agree. I hope you have the same respect for mine.

Don't forget: "Coe-" is the first syllable in "co-exist"!

Later, gator.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 7th, 2017, 12:18 pm
by Coebul
PucPuggy wrote:
October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
Coebul, You are not the gun-owning American I am against. I am no more against you than I am against my nephew. I don't, however, condone military weapons and ammo in private hands.
But it is my gun you want to take. So in fact I am one of the gun owning Americans you are against!
PucPuggy wrote:
October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
As for our beliefs re abortion and the second amendment: Comparing the two is celery and eggplants.
Well we do disagree. But I think you really missed my point.
PucPuggy wrote:
October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
You wish to control and limit our complete healthcare. It's a gender war. On the other hand, regarding gun control, I and many like me simply do not want weapons created for war available to private citizens. Both men and women agree on this; it is not a gender issue. In addition,
LOL.. You are merely rationalizing your position.. Roughly stated I seek to limit your complete healthcare but you seek to limit specific weapons.
PucPuggy wrote:
October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
the amendment you cherish does not give you and all the others unlimited rights. Even Scalia said that.

That is not quite what Scalia said.
“It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service — M-16 rifles and the like — may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty. It may well be true today that a militia, to be as effective as militias in the 18th century, would require sophisticated arms that are highly unusual in society at large. Indeed, it may be true that no amount of small arms could be useful against modern-day bombers and tanks. But the fact that modern developments have limited the degree of fit between the prefatory clause and the protected right cannot change our interpretation of the right.”~Anton Scalia December 2015

PucPuggy wrote:
October 7th, 2017, 8:15 am
I respect your position although I don't agree. I hope you have the same respect for mine.

Don't forget: "Coe-" is the first syllable in "co-exist"!

Later, gator.
I guess that really depends on what you plan to take away. I have several weapons. If you try to take them away we will have a problem. Regardless of respect.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 7th, 2017, 12:26 pm
by Coebul
scrutney wrote:
October 6th, 2017, 10:39 pm
coe...i have my doubts as to whether i could shoot a man...

Maybe not. But I would have to ask if you have ever been robbed at gun point? Has anyone threatened you or your family? There are damn few atheists in a fox hole.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 7th, 2017, 3:11 pm
by bieramar
It is always the person who is at fault when someone is unjustly killed - not the weapon.

Just as it is the person who builds a house is responsible - not the hammers, nails, and other tools.

A gun is a killing tool.

As far as controlling the time, place, and manner of obtaining, possessing and using guns - the killing tools - the following quotes are from the Heller decision of June 26, 2008, written by Scalia.

"[T]he Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose:... nothing in our opinion should be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws impos­ing conditions and qualifications on
the commercial sale of arms."

"We also recognize another important limitation on the right to keep and carry arms. [T]he sorts of weapons protected were those 'in common use at the time.' We think that limitation is fairly supported by the historical tradi­tion of prohibiting the carrying of 'dangerous and unusual weapons.' It may be objected that if weapons that are most useful in military service—M-16 rifles and the like—may be banned, then the Second Amendment right is completely detached from the prefatory clause. But as we have said, the conception of the militia at the time of the Second Amendment’s ratification was the body of all citizens capable of military service, who would bring the sorts of lawful weapons that they possessed at home to militia duty."

Thus the Constitution enables the federal government to ban "dangerous and unusual weapons" from private use.

https://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/07pdf/07-290.pdf

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 10th, 2017, 8:33 pm
by mike
Justice Scalia wrote:... prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws impos­ing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms.
  • If I were asked, which I wasn't, I would say I consider myself opposed to gun control.
  • I have a couple of handguns. I don't currently own a long rifle or shotgun, but I have in the past.
  • I am not a member of NRA, but I was in the past.
  • I have a state permit to carry concealed weapons.
  • I am not a hunter, I shoot silhouette targets.
  • If I ever have to fire my weapon outside the safety of a pistol range, it will be directed at a person; and, yes, it will be with the intention of killing them. I think "warning shots" are dangerous. I think pulling your handgun out of its holster is dangerous; so, I never draw my weapon to threaten or scare someone unless it is incidental to the use of deadly force.
I fail to see how anyone could conflate my six personal beliefs as opposition to what Justice Scalia has written, but I get that all the time. They hear that I am opposed to gun control, own weapons, have a gun permit, and am fully prepared to shoot and kill anyone who presents the threat of deadly force to me, and they somehow assume that I think permits and guns should be handed out on the street corner. I don't.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 10th, 2017, 9:49 pm
by bieramar
So Mike, if you were asked, would you consider yourself opposed to vehicular and pedestrian traffic control?

Speed limits, seat belts, turning signals, air bags, traffic lanes, drivers licenses, etc.?

Gun control laws and regulations are no different - both reduce (but don't eliminate) fatalities and injuries and crime.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 11th, 2017, 11:48 am
by Coebul
bieramar wrote:
October 10th, 2017, 9:49 pm
So Mike, if you were asked, would you consider yourself opposed to vehicular and pedestrian traffic control?

Speed limits, seat belts, turning signals, air bags, traffic lanes, drivers licenses, etc.?

Gun control laws and regulations are no different - both reduce (but don't eliminate) fatalities and injuries and crime.
I'm not MIke.. Apples and Orangutans. The very first thing we learn when getting our drivers license. "Driving in not a right but a privileged".

Back up 200 years. Is the horse, the main mode of travel at the time, mentioned in the US Constitution? Some how I don't think so. It was taken for granted that man uses a horse to travel.

On the other hand the colonist/newly formed nation felt so strongly about having enumerated person rights it was insisted on and became one of the first acts of the newly formed congress. First session Sept 25, 1789 Congress passed 12 amendments to the Constitution. One of those enumerated right was the second amendment to the Constitution. I wonder whether the founders would agree with later SCOTUS decisions to limit, regulate that right.

Re: HOW MANY MORE TIMES? LAS VEGAS MASSACRE

Posted: October 14th, 2017, 8:09 pm
by bieramar
Coebul wrote:I wonder whether the founders would agree with later SCOTUS decisions to limit, regulate that right.
You don't have to wonder, as the SCOTUS decisions, e.g. Heller, quote extensively from the Founders and Framers - and from the laws in the Colonies that restricted the use and carrying of personal weapons as to time, place, and manner.